Was thinking about going against what I said and doing some 25 hardmodes if we don't get LK down on Tuesday with the contigency that iLevel 277 geared wouldn't be allowed on LK until we've defeated him and only people that showed up on Tuesday or were in attendance for LK would be eligible to receive the heroic loot on Wednesday. Hopefully this can drive up attendance on Tuesday if people are really more interested in getting 277 gear.

I think 4-5 Heroic bosses are much easier than the LK fight. I think we will plow threw them.

Also I don't want to work on RS until we have completed ICC 25. It's just going to be too much of time drain.

What do you guys think? Need some feedback before tomorrow.

I like the idea of doing hardmodes on Wedsnesday. I am ok with this - the only suggestion I might have is setting a limit on the number of attempts per hardmode - allowing exposure but still allowing us to progress through the instance and potentially get more people their imbuements. Obviously that is up for discussion though.

I concur x 1000.

We should probably avoid wing bosses so that we don't have to deal with the whole heroic mark issue since that would force a person to go up to a 277 and have no piece left behind as it would have been upgraded.

Otherwise, I think this is a great idea and should serve as a good incentive to get people to show up for both nights.

Presumably you don't have to be IN the raid on Tuesday if you are on standby to still get the opportunity on Wednesday.

That is correct.

I don't know...I kind of think if we're going to do the harmodes, then might as well drop the "no 277 gear" bit and just do it with what we have.

At that point, the gear is like the buff. We could try doing ICC without the buff, but we'd rather just get the bosses down.

I like your idea of making Wednesday hardmodes contingent on attendance to LK attempts on Tuesday.

On a side note, would any of the officers be interested in setting up a run on thursdays for Glory of the Ulduar Raider, 10 or 25? Maybe get some people the mounts before Blizz takes them away like with Naxx? I'd lead it myself, but frankly i've got no experience leading or setting up a raid and haven't run Ulduar past the first 4, so they group would most likely be epic fail.

I agree with Janyaa, if we're doing the hardmodes anyways we've already dropped the "not doing them until we're earned them" clause, and I know that there is already atleast one piece of 277 gear being worn by almost everyone (the ring) and a few people with 277 gear out of heroic 25 man already. On top of that if we're still worried about the comments made by FWM (which I don't think we should be and if anyone is interested in that particular rant as to why, I will be happy to go into it online), then we really shouldn't do any hard modes as there is no way to prove that we did LK with no heroic gear (no achieve for using only ilvl X gear like there is for ulduar), so to me there is no reason to say "ok everyone take off your 277s now".

I think this could be a tremendous incentive and I am leaning towards using 277 as well

Ok so for now I'm going to go with you will not be eligible to receive 277 loot unless you were in attendance on Tues. We will probably make Tuesday LK day and Wenesday hardmodes day.

I am hoping we can just get him down tonight so we don't have to worry about all of this

Again, I know there is alot of interest in doing RS , but I would like to avoid Ruby Sanctum 25 until we have Lich King down. I think not only will it take up alot of our time, but also be a whole nother fight to be thinking be about which can be very distracting.

I completely agree.

I think were not holding to what we said. I'll do whatever the guild wants. Too bad we can't just type in up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, b, a, select, start. I do have a question... Why do we want 277 gear? I mean what's the point? What are we preparing for or do we need the gear for?

Personally, Chapy I have the same feeling on the matter as you do, but if we're the only ones that feel that way, (and I think hots and theaxx do too) the idea fizzles where it took off from. Fact of the matter is most people would rather see 277 gear than spend time killing LK without the heroic gear.

We really have to start accessing what are values of the guild are. And to be more specific, what is our current mission?

1.) Is our mission to get raiders the highest gear score possible and parade around dalaran with our giant epeen? If so, we fuck our attempts on LK and just focus on getting hardmode bosses down.

2.) Is our mission to down LK? If so, we should spend every night on him because at this point gear has nothing to do with whether we succeed or not. In fact, it shouldn't be done with heroic gear until we have downed him at least once.

The problem I'm seeing is that most of the officers and some of the raiders fall in category 2. Alot of our raiders fall under category 1. I also think Janyaa and others sit somewhere in between 1 and 2. In fairness, we try to balance between the two spending time on LK on tuesday and heroics on wednesday. The balancing act however causes a conflict of interest as people in category 2 feel that the LK kill should be done how it was intended to be done.

They care more about the "feeling" they get after the trials and tribulation of a difficult, challenging boss and the gear is just a cherry on top. To us, the 25% or 30% buff is a in game mechanic for the ICC raid which blizzard designed into the game and does not negate from the validity of the kill. Whereas doing it with heroic gear does. "so to me there is no reason to say "ok everyone take off your 277s now" . So Mori, you can say that there is no reason for you, but to Chapy and I there is.

What I have proposed, is a give give between the people in both categories. The people in category 2 understand that gear is very important and are willing to go in on Wednesday fresh to get some gear for the guild. People in category 2 are asking the people in category 1 to have respect for the inegrity and value they get out of killing boss and limit the gear they wear to 264 gear other than the ring bc that is a special circumstance.

Anyways that's my 2 cents. Yver, no offense but I don't think you understood the reprecussions of doing what you did and being a GM Lewis probably did, and that is another reason I have a problem with him.

Removing heroic gear when you have it already would be like trying to save 'face' while streaking downtown in daylight.

Just to make sure I understand this... So the leaders of our group (us) don't want to do what we're doing. However, MOST of our raiders do. How did that happen?

When Yveradacy drew the big bold line that clarified the segregation. There was no conflict of interest between the two before this. Like I said, Im trying to propose a give give to hold things together until LK is down.

You're doing a great job man! I don't mean to give ya a hard time either... I just feel this is a very defining thing and worthy of opinion. I'm going to have fun either way

It will be really tough to get people to take off their 277 gear once they get it, and who is going to be the one inspecting everyone? lol

In my opinion, Im in with #2, we should only get heroic gear once we down LK, otherwise we would be wearing gear that we dont deserve to have. I think we should stay on LK till he is dead.

It really hurts our progression on this fight when we only fight him once a week. I think we would have a lot more momentum going into the second night on him while its still fresh in our minds, instead of waiting a whole week to come back and try again. If we get to stage three on the first night we can carry that momentum and moral into the next night, but a week later it will be back to the starting point again.

Right? Is it possible to balance? Or should it be one side of the fence or the other? Balancing is a tool in my belt to motivate people to actually show up for LK, but then again it's a tool built on a type of motivation I don't particularly share.

If it is one side, it will certainly be #2 and not number #1.

Personally I'm more with #2 because I do feel heroics should be earned by the skill of the guild. However I can see both sides. People may be getting burned out constanty wiping on LK and feel their character is not getting any better (aka spinning their wheels). Saying this I don't believe that better gear will be the deciding factor in whether we down LK or not. This fight is determined by skill (not gear) and with practice and people learning throughout the fight how to avoid stuff we will get him down.

I will stick with whatever the guild leaders do decide and feel this idea is probably the closest we will get to a compromise between the two sides.